I was googling caryatids on behalf of my wife. The word makes me think of the Erecthium figures, but I soon began to come across lions. I must say this is my favourite, from outside Verona cathederal:
It must be one of the oddest sequences of transferring loads of all time: from column base, to lion, to bas-relief crows, to more birds and Egyptians, to column shaft. I would like to see the back end of it too, sometime. There are more:
with small lions conveniently placed to take the load, and a man doing what looks like dental work on the biggest lion. Here are a couple more of these Romanesque Italian lions (because of their position in relation to the column and the step they’re known in the trade as stylobate lions):
Actually Giovanni da Campione’s whole porch is pretty great, it’s like one of the mad buildings in a Giotto fresco:
And here’s the Colleoni Chapel, next door:
Here are a pair of 12th century stylobate lions in the cloister of St John Lateran in Rome:
Here they are again more recently; they’re roaring:
I read here:
The archway in the middle of the south side of these cloisters (opposite the one represented in our illustration) rests on sphinxes, one of which is bearded. The human-headed monsters, wearing the claft or nemes, images of Egyptian Pharaohs, were obviously modelled in imitation of ancient originals.
If you ask me, they were modelled in imitation of Snow White & The Seven Stylobate Dwarfs:
None of the Romanesque stylobate lions is terribly realistic, by comparison look at the twinned lions in Persepolis (sorry about the railings), performing the same duty. These ones have quite good lions’ faces:
And they are the earliest version I can find; though of course there are earlier lions-and-columns, like the Minoan lionesses on the entablature at Mycenæ (they too are fairly realistic depictions):
Lions are wonderful creatures, but I’d never have chosen them for their load-bearing capacity. Perhaps someone can point me in the right direction for more information on this theme.
Wikipedia’s caryatid article is too restrictive. In addition to Modigliani, it’s the normal term used by dealers and art historians for human figures supporting stools and headrests in Sub-Saharan African art.
I love the photos you’ve found!
I’m just guessing, but perhaps lions are used because they symbolise power and majesty and that’s a good foundation for any building…
Mmmm too silly! (Well, read only my first sentence)
If you’re going to do dental work on a lion, it’s really best to have him pinned down by a large column first.
Yes, that’s what I was thinking!
It’s the Santa Maria Maggiore, but do you know what story it’s supposed to represent?
No, I don’t. I’m sorry, M, I forgot to put where all these lions are. Only four of them are from Santa Maria Maggiore, in Bergamo, though (two l. & r. transept pairs). But the story; it must be found. Unfortunately I’m going out now.
There’s also a couple of Diego Giacometti caryatids; not his best pieces in my opinion.
Some of those lions are lionesses, as shown by the small lions under them. The one with the man (or most likely a child) has two smaller lions around her. But the sculptors had probably only seen representations of male lions and did not realize that females did not have manes.
The Mycenian gate also shows lionesses (it is called Porte des Lionnes in French), as shown by their lack of a mane.
Lions on monuments mean two things: a warning to trespassers that the monument is protected, and the power of the occupant of the monument (whether a natural or supernatural person), who is capable of controlling the powerful wild animal and enlisting it for protection. As with other animals, the female is a more fierce fighter when defending her offspring (the lioness with the two cubs and the child is equally protective of those smaller creatures).
Yes, it’s the same name in English–I think they do have manes, they’re just a bit eroded.
A lot of the stylobate lions are in pairs, a male and a female.
Mrs. Gardner had one.
That’s a nice one. I haven’t been there for thirty years.
Apparently there are two:
That’s a bas-relief?!
Damn, but I’m ignorant …
Speaking of compression (Tuesday 6 March).
I haven’t been there for thirty years.
They’re sticking this Renzo Piano thing on the back of it, in fairly clear violation of the terms of her will. On the other hand, one can’t much object to getting the gift shop, cafe and administrative offices out of Fenway Court. On the other other hand, moving the concerts is probably going too far.
Possibly all these lions on buildings have a deeper psychological significance. We know that architects enjoy being lionized, but they are also ashamed of this desire. They try to repress it, but of course end up projecting it, or rather the lions, onto their buildings. The lions themselves project from the buildings.
Architects obtain emotional relief by these means, if only a minor, bas relief (in their revealing terminology).
That was an attempt at corny, Readers’ Digest humor. Pretty good, huh ?
You should have your own column.
I bet this would tell us much if it weren’t just snippets.
It’s got some names to go on though…
I hope he doesn’t ruin the Gardner Museum. They just can’t leave these places alone (museums).
Ooh, I found one in Rome. I’ll put it in the main text.
Norman Foster’s doing a new Americas Wing to the MFA only a few blocks away.
I’ve come to accept, maybe even like Moshe Safdie’s new Peabody Essex Museum. Though I loved the old Peabody Museum of Salem, with cases just crammed full of an odd mix. Some of that survives in the upper floors of the other Peabody Museum (in Cambridge at Harvard — I guess Yale has one too); the main floor has everything neatly spaced, well lit and fully multimedia documented.
Here we go from the original Gardner construction.
I think Nij showed pictures of the outside of the Peabody in Cambridge, last summer.
Pretty soon they’re going to have to redefine architect as “someone who designs additions to museums”.
I think the lions may be an Egyptian thing or at least derived from sphinxes (see above).
Here are a couple more: a lion & lioness, m-l!
Flickr’s Romanesque pool for lion has some good ones in Parma, Pistoia (though Wikipedia is better) and Bremen. stilofori leoni is a good Google Images search.
What do you use for the male of caryatid? telamon? atlante?
It appears that the Romanesque Lombard porch started in Modena, with some actual Roman lions that were unearthed and then got worked in as column supports. (More here.)
They also made it across the Adriatic to Sebenico.
What’s going on here at Saint-Gilles?
The two lions here are slightly different in their manes, but for the others I fail to see much of a difference, and the ones with cubs have manes that are just as full as the ones without.
There were lions around the Mediterranean in antiquity, but by the heyday of the circus games in the Roman Empire they were imported from Africa, and probably only males were caught for that purpose. As time went on, there were fewer occasions to actually see any actual lions, so for a long time older pictures and sculptures were the only models.
Do phallic caryatids existe anywhere in the world? (ggt!) That must be very hard to keep it up all the time, every second of every year*. Almost as hard as for the Verona cathedral lion, who has a column in the middle of his back*, as if his Creator wanted to break it.
* no bending moment allowed
(by “here” I was responding to AJP @ 1:39 am)
Mycenae’s Lions’ Gate: la Porte des Lionnes means “Lionesses’s Gate”; male lions would have Porte des Lions. See the caption on Wikipedia: Lion which specifies lionesses (there is a good discussion of the cultural importance and representation of lions and lionesses).
oh boy! oh boy! Finally someone asked a question and I get to show off my one bit of arcane knowledge. Female supports are caryatids; male supports are atlases.
In St Petersburg, where there are hundreds of atlases and sculptures of nude men all over the city, the kids like to whack off the, uh, family jewels. A friend of mine knew the sculptor charged with replacing them. Isn’t that a funny specialty? All he did was carve dicks.
Why should that be less interesting than carving niches ?
Female supports are caryatids; male supports are atlases
No, no – brassieres and jockstraps.
Humankind has gotten rather pendulous in the course of detaching itself from natural selection. Or perhaps the hanging bits are a relict of our origins in the oceans, as some anthropologists like to think. Walruses glide gracefully through the waters.
In any case, the support industry keeps a lot of people in work.
Very funny, Grumbly. Well, the weird thing is that the statues are old, but the dicks are always new and bright and shiny.
Golly, that might be the origin of the expression “to take a shine to someone”. And “straighten up and look bright”. I trust St. Petersburg women appreciate the municipal attention paid to them in this way.
I want to thank MMcM for wrestling the lions to the ground. Only he could have come up with the Gardner pictures and the googling phrase “stilofori leoni“.
Since it’s Oscars weekend, I would also like to thank mab for enlightening us with caryatid vs atlas, m-l for persisting with her assertion that the lions of Mycenæ are in drag (shown to be correct), and finally to Grumbly and Sig for making penis jokes.
That’s great about the stoneworker specializing in genital repair . The expression “whack off” sidetracked me for a moment, though. On first reading, I swear I thought the youths of the city were doing something with their own members.
Yes, atlas, but note that the plural is atlantes.
I wondered about the plural, since in German it’s Atlanten. But surely in English atlantes would have to be pronounced with three syllables. “Atlants” would sound stoopid, and it doesn’t sound like a plural of atlas anyway. So the question arises: what is the character of the “e” in the third syllable of atlantes: atlant”eh”s or atlant”eeeee”s ?
Although it may sound untutored, I would go for “atlas(s)es”, like the geography books.
Maybe the awkwardness of pluralizing atlas in English is a good reason to say telamon instead.
Yes, but Stu, I’ve noticed that younger people (than us) who have had a dose of Latin have no qualms about using the modern latin pronunciation (or whatever it’s called) for such things. I’d be tempted to use “atlant-ehs” (atlant-AAAAA).
Telamon doesn’t get half the hits, though.
Telamon is just as awkward. What is the plural ? “Telemen” ? “Telemontes” sound like a Canadian police force that acts at a distance, over the phone.
Hat, as usual, you are brilliant. Another piece to add to my arcane knowledge of St Petersburg and other monuments.
Sorry about the whacking off. A Freudian pun?
To answer Siganus K’s question seriously, I suspect that there must have been ithyphallic telamons. There are a couple of Satyr telamons from the Piazzetta dei Satiri now in the Museo Capitolino (click on “Statua di Pan” under Subject for photos). And there is the tripod in the Gabinetto Segreto (no luck finding actual photos of it or the fountain from the Casa dei Vettii; maybe my search engine is censoring).
And, of course, we’ve neglected the other side of the world, like Sanchi. (Site has a rather confusing UI; here is an ever-changing link from which more photos of elephant and dwarf torana supports are accessible via a strange multi-level navigation).
Hat, as usual, you are brilliant.
Yes, he is, but I must point out that MMcM was brilliant first:
M: What do you use for the male of caryatid? telamon? atlante?
the kids like to whack off the, uh, family jewels.
There’s probably something they plan to organize.
Sorry, I should have added the pronunciation: at-LAN-teez.
(You can use -tays if you’re speaking Latin, but English is not Latin. You don’t say AHT-lahs, right?)
The shirtsleeve notation for vowel pronunciation has broken down, apparently. When I wrote “eh” above, Crown thought I meant long A:
What I meant by “eh” was an American short “eh”, as in “fr[eh]sh fish”.
Following on Crown’s “AAAAA” for “eh”, hat writes:
If he means “ah” as in “h[ah]t to tr[ah]t”, then yes, a Brit might well say that (approx). I take “ah” to be as in “[ah]ttitude”, so I say “[ah]tlusss”.
It might be useful to have a (very !) small selection of IPA characters at my command, only a few vowels say. On the other hand, if other people don’t know them too, they’re useless to me. Like “eh” and “ah” here. And I’m tired of searching here and there for the Unicode of characters that my German keyboard doesn’t have. I’m so glad that English characters are a subset of the German ones.
Folks, technology is just as much a hindrance as a help. Using a ballpoint pen, it’s easy to write French with its cédille and circonflexe, and Spanish with its tilde over the n. Its hard to produce those things with a German/English keyboard. It’s easy to work with several reference books spread out on your desk, but hard to work with several windows on your desktop overlapping each other. Email in a foreign language can be transmitted faster than a postal letter, but you can compose a letter much faster and more conveniently with a ballpoint pen than on a keyboard not designed for the language(s) being used.
I suppose I could get Spanish and French keyboards in addition to my German one, but would that make life easier ? No, because non-language-specific letters and punctuation marks are distributed differently on these keyboards (on a German keyboard, Y and Z have switched positions as compared with an American keyboard). And I would have to have a hardware hub to alternate conveniently between the keyboards.
The fact that anything, not just technology, is good for some activities but not for others, is not what bugs me. What bugs me is that so many people seem to be unaware of this as regards technology. They waste an enormous amount of time getting unadapted technology-out-of-the-box to do what they want it to do in all respects. As regards blogging, for instance, I find the whole keyboard/characters/IPA/Unicode business to be terrifically inefficient.
There is already technology in the box that it would be easier to adapt for the purposes of blogging in a mix of languages. The oh-so-primitive fax, for instance. We could compose our blogs and comments with pen and paper, then fax them to the website, which should support html and fax formats. Or compose them on a pc tablet, then transmit the results.
Instead of fiddling with Unicode and IPA, people could embed sound bites in the text to exemplify pronunciation. This would have the particular charm, for me, of revealing whether persons who otherwise make lavish use of IPA are actually in command of the phonemes in question, i.e. can themselves reproduce them so as to convince other IPA-lavishing persons that they know what they’re talking about. Think of all the cat-fighting that would we would be treated to regarding accurate renditions ! Such larks !
Grumbly, I use a small free keyboard program called Multikey for typing all the languages I use, from French and Turkish accents through various Eastern European Latin and Cyrillic keyboards to polytonic Greek or voweled Persian, and even ad hoc character sets like 17th-century printed Church Slavic provided with Greek diacritic signs. You can easily tailor it to your own keyboard, so that its default position is English or German or whatever you want and type the additional signs either with pre-defined key combinations or by switching to a completely new keyboard (and then back). It has a keyboard for IPA too, although you can also add those IPA signs to your default Multikey Latin keyboard and type them as key combinations.
The paper-fax-OCR-blog combo can be a hindrance if you type fast enough (and in Multikey you can), while listening to sound bites could be embarrassing when reading blogs at your workplace, for example…
…mmm… I wonder why my previous comment does not come through…
Perhaps you inadvertently posted it to a different comment thread ? Or it got lost in the interholes of the internet.
It does not come through on a second try either. Well, I just wanted to recommend Multikey, a free and adaptable keyboard to type all the characters you might need, including French, Spanish and IPA, but WordPress apparently does not like much praise. Sic superi voluerunt.
The goats must have eaten it.
If you back up on your browser, you should be able to recover the text. Except for very brief comments such as this one, I always compose my comments in a text file using a simple editor. When finished, I paste the results into the comment text area. In that way, nothing ever gets permanently lost.
Let’s have a second try, this time without the embedded link (you can google for it), perhaps this way it will avoid the goats’ censorship.
I use a small free keyboard program called Multikey for typing all the languages I wish from French and Turkish accents through various Eastern European Latin and Cyrillic keyboards to polytonic Greek or voweled Persian, and even such ad hoc character sets as 17th-century printed Church Slavic provided with Greek diacritic signs. You can easily tailor it to your own keyboard, so that its default position is English or German or whatever you want and type the additional signs either with pre-defined key combinations or by switching to a completely new keyboard (and then back). It has a keyboard for IPA too, although you can also add those IPA signs to your default Multikey Latin keyboard and type them as key combinations.
The paper-fax-OCR-blog combo can be a hindrance if you type fast enough (and in Multikey you can), while listening to sound bites could be embarrassing when reading blogs at your workplace, for example…
It could be that Crown hasn’t paid his internet bill, and the provider is gently dunning him by “losing” the occasional comment.
I always compose my comments in a text file using a simple editor. When finished, I paste the results
Yes, me too always do like this. That’s how I could repeat such a long advertisement in such a short time.
I’ll search for Multikey, and report back. Still, a tablet writer (or whatever it’s called) is bound to be faster for text without soundbites [I think it’s written together ? Though I myself didn’t do that originally] or pictures. Your blogs must consume ours and hours !
Multikey
ours and hours
I mean they must be a bear to layout.
You mean their composition or their download?
As to a tablet writer, I had used one to write in Chinese on the computer. But then it turned out that with a minimum of practice it is faster to type (in pinyin and picking the corresponding character) than to correct the characters erroneously recognized by the tablet.
With ours I was referring to page composition.
the characters erroneously recognized by the tablet.
I didn’t know that tablet writers used OCR. That would be pointless. I would want a device that records pixels, something that I could write on directly, instead of writing on paper and then photographing it.
But it would be cheaper and easier to write something, then fax it.
Even cheaper and quicker is to tell it via Skype. This postmodern kind of blog post should only include on the screen the title and the hours when the readers can contact you via Skype. The rest of the post is auricular.
Language: (You can use -tays if you’re speaking Latin, but English is not Latin. You don’t say AHT-lahs, right?)
By “AAAAAA”, I just meant /A/s. I just couldn’t think of a good example like your -tays.
I can’t say I’m consistent in my Latin pronunciation, I just do it in the half-arsed way we were taught at school.
I keep writing “fax it”, but what I mean is just to send a file in various graphics formats. Fax is too slow.
the hours when the readers can contact you via Skype. The rest of the post is auricular.
What a setback that would be. Communication only in praesentia ! Like having to traipse down to the forum to say your say.
But what a gain in personality in this alienated modern world of ours!
Studiolum, I’m really sorry you were forced into so much unnecessary work. For some reason all your comments were put on the pile of potential spam. Now I’ve released them, and it ought not to happen again–I don’t know why it does, either; the wordpress judgment of spam always seems very arbitrary.
But what a gain in personality in this alienated modern world of ours!
That sounds a bit crypto-Catholic. I’ll explain what I mean in a moment. But first let me excerpt the beginning of Sloterdijk’s Regeln für den Menschenpark, on letter-writing:
Now back to Catholicism. To me, “personality” is only an aspect of a human being, like the soul. But I discovered once that some Catholics believe that only the soul is important, and the human being is dreck. The following anecdote illustrates this. I have since found indications that it is in fact a point of Catholic dogma, but nothing certain. If anyone knows more, please tell me.
About four years ago I worked in a project in a town about 70 kilometers north of Cologne (Wermelskirchen). I travelled to and fro on the bus line, because it was simpler than the train. Every morning there were two old ladies on the bus who set great store on attending early morning mass (6:00 I think) at the Cologne cathedral. One was German, the other looked to be of Korean origin.
The German woman once related problems she had been having with the hospital treatment of her husband, who had had a heart attack. She was incensed at the fact that doctors had initially given him sedatives, because these had caused him to hallucinate slightly – in the sense, as I understood her to be saying, that he didn’t seem to be in full agreement any more with her as to the point of life. He was no longer receiving the drugs. I suggested that the doctors had perhaps meant well, “since they’re only people, and people make mistakes”. She replied angrily: “people don’t count, only the soul counts” – meaning the soul of her husband, I suppose.
I take “ah” to be as in “[ah]ttitude”, so I say “[ah]tlusss”.
Really? You say attitude with a “continental” /a/ in the first syllable? Remarkable — I’m always astonished at the variety of English dialects. At any rate, my point stands; whatever the quality of the first vowel, you use a schwa in the second, as is inevitable in English but impossible in Latin. Since you don’t say AHT-lahs for the singular, you shouldn’t say aht-LAHN-tays (at-‘lan-tes, using quasi-IPA values) for the plural. The English plural is at-LAN-teez (æt-‘læn-tiyz).
Bugger, the software is changing my stress marks to apostrophes. Let’s try this: /’atlas, at-ˈlan-tes/.
WTF.
Yes, I’ve complained before about such wordpress pecularities, at Sig’s site. WordPress scans your post for single and double quotes, pairs them up and changes them into pairs of something else – German-style slanted double-quotes, I think. des von bladet’s software changes colons into semicolons.
You say attitude with a “continental” /a/ in the first syllable?
What’s continental about the “a” in attitude ? I’ve never heard it pronounced any other way except for the American one: the “a” where your mouth opens and the sound comes through at the top back of the throat, a bit nasalized. A typically American sound, I would have thought.
… where your mouth opens wide …
What’s continental about the “a” in attitude ?
I can’t answer, because I’m not sure what “a” you mean. By “continental a” I mean the a of Spanish, Italian, etc.; I find it hard to imagine this being used in attitude, as I said. The normal vowel in both US and UK English is /æ/; I’m not concerned with the differences in US and UK realizations of this (“where your mouth opens and the sound comes through at the top back of the throat, a bit nasalized”), I’m concerned with the essential (“phonemic,” to use the linguist’s term) difference between that vowel and the IPA /a/, a version of which is used in father. I guess the question is, do you use the same vowel in the first syllables of attitude and father?
do you use the same vowel in the first syllables of attitude and father ?
No. Maybe it would be clearer simply to state that the “a” in my “attitude” is the “a” in my “at”. Surely there is only one Mid-Atlantic way to pronounce “at”.
MMcM, one John Davenport had a book printed in 1869. Some of the illustrations show phallic columns, but I doubt they could be caryatids of any kind since they don’t carry any load apart from their self weight. Some “Oscan votive columns” and “Irish towers” are fairly surprising.
Maybe it would be clearer simply to state that the “a” in my “attitude” is the “a” in my “at”. Surely there is only one Mid-Atlantic way to pronounce “at”.
Ah, then we basically pronounce “atlas” the same way. Another pointless discussion!
>A. J. P. Crown
Eureka! I found the lions which I said you some months ago:
http://www.iberimage.com/es/fotodetalle.jsp?id_foto=BA_302.jpg#
>A. J. P. Crown
http://www.europapress.es/cultura/noticia-doce-leones-alhambra-regresan-palacios-nazaries-20100729172135.html
Oh, look at that.
They’re older than the Italian ones, then. They look similar to the ones in Bergamo and Verona.
>A. J. P. Crown
Finally the lions are working.