If you read to the end of yesterday’s comments, you know that last night Trond and I experienced the first of this winter’s snow storms. Well, storm is an exaggeration. This morning, on the fields, it looked like nothing more than a mild frost and by lunchtime it was all gone .
This evening, while I was driving around, I saw the full moon and the clear blue sky and I thought I’d take some pictures. As is always the way with my pictures the moon ones weren’t very good, but I liked the other accidental ones. So here they are. The first one was illuminated by a bus going past:
In each one, it’s the evening light that makes them interesting. I want to take some more tomorrow.
A Bad Guide 
The moon is full over here, too.
The moons are full on Mars too.
The sun was full today, too.
The sun is always full of rice grains.
AJP, incidentally, do the people from Britain usually see themselves as Europeans?
Some time ago, The Right Honourable John Cowan asked whether Ma.r.tians considered their country as African (cf. the sig.). The answer was generally no. But I was quite surprised this morning, while reading an article on the BBC’s website about how people from different countries reacted to austerity measures, to see a British civil servant say this: “I think people in Britain have a different culture to those in Europe – and I don’t think we’ll see the same level of strikes.”
Why won’t the British be Europeans? After all John Kennedy was a Berliner, wasn’t he?
Why won’t the goats accept a new comment? Will they this time?
Yes, but Kennedy was talking about a kind of doughnut.
Most people in the USA don’t identify with North or South America, particularly. You should read Jason Kennedy’s (no relation) article about Guatemala in the LRB (Jason has commented here occasionally as Pinhut).
There has been a lot of talk in the past few days about the French strikes and the cultural difference between Britain and France. In Britain people only strike for more pay, whereas in France strikes are a form of political protest.
Since the start of the Common Market in the ’50s, Britain has been in a very different position from France, Germany and the others in mainland Europe, because of its “relationship” with the USA. Apart from the ugly British strategic dependence on the US, and its consequences, what that relationship amounts to is a common language, and over the years the importance of English has grown rather than diminished. I think that, rather than La Manche, is the basis for Britain’s coolness towards the Europeans. If they don’t like something European (the Euro, the song contest — whatever), they can just say “Well, we’ve always got the Americans”. And that works the other way round too: if they (or I) don’t like something American (nuclear missiles, Lady Gaga — whatever) they can say “We’ve always got Europe”; but even when the USA has horrible policies the US still isn’t rejected by Britain, partly because Europe never has only one alternative (the Germans say one thing, the French something else and “Europe” something else again).
I could be wrong. I just made this up while I was writing.
This comment is too long. Don’t read it if you’re probably going to get annoyed halfway through.
There is a recurrent racism now towards the French in the UK, it seems to have leaked across the internet in the wake of US cultivated hatred of all things French (it remains an insult in US discourse to refer to something as French). I saw it on the comment boards this week re: the French strike action. One explanation, proffered by many, was that the French protests amount to a display of petulance, and are driven, primarily, by laziness – ie: ‘the French won’t work work until they are 62, rather than 60, because they ‘don’t live in the real world’ or ‘expect something for nothing’ or are idle by nature.’ (To be fair, others wished that the UK could react with similar shows of solidarity).
However, the UK (non)reaction to these measures, typically, to sit around in pubs moaning about it, or commenting on The Guardian, etc, is equally compelling evidence of laziness or of ‘voluntary helplessness’ – (“What can you do?”) Somehow, in the UK, popular protest is impossible to get started because somehow the initiative needs to come from outside. I saw pretty much the same thing in the US, regarding the white population there, highly unlikely to engage in/support any sort of mass mobilisation, and usually quick to condemn any sort of show of strength by minorities as unamerican, a threat, criminal, ungrateful, etc.
It’s disappointing because the UK has a tremendous history of popular protest.
As for the ‘part of Europe’ thing, it’s always somehow presented as an option to be part of Europe (the entire UKIP party is based on leaving the EU and returning to ‘Edwardian standards’!?), though, seemingly, there is no alternative. And, the reverse position has often been touted, also, of going from the margin to suddenly being ‘at the heart of Europe’. Some of it is geography, some of it is history. Personally, I feel I have more in common with an Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, German, French, Greek, etc, than with an American or a Canadian (though Australians/NZ people are pretty much UK people in most respects). I don’t feel much bond to English people, partly because they are generally tainted by their nationalism, which I have never had a feel for, particularly self-identifying ‘ex-pats’, so I basically avoid English people while I am away (the last 6 years).
I don’t actually think most US* citizens actually have a conception of ‘the rest of the world’, I’d go along with the description offered by Alain Badiou:
“… one should consider the self-centration of the USA, its total screening out of everything that is of concern in the rest of the world through the very particular system of its interests. For Americans, the world has no objective existence. It is only the stage of their interests, a disparate assortment of situations scrutinized according to the threats or prospects they present to American comfort (‘the American way of life’, ‘the American dream’ – what is presented to the whole world as the supreme goal that everyone must strive to realize). The extraordinary ignorance of the majority of Americans concerning the most elementary facts of other peoples’ lives is in reality only a consequence of the fact that America is, for Americans, the finality of the world.”
This attitude is most keenly felt in those countries, like Guatemala, Mexico, that border the US. Likewise, the way Britain treated Ireland.
*Badiou uses ‘Americans’ but I do limit myself to calling them ‘US citizens’ because this is a particularly sore point, generally, in Latin America, that the US deigns to refer to itself with the same name as two continents. A common refrain/complaint is to hear – “Somos todos Americanos.”
Duh – (I know Guatemala doesn’t border the US)
Ohhhh the comment I was writing disappeared.
It was so cool & profound & clever…!! ;-)
Never mind, the important thing is your pictures are great!
As someone who was bounced on Dutch and Norwegian knees before ever I’d met an Englishman, I do find the increasing use of “Europe” to mean the The Continent, or the EU, or even the Eurozone, profoundly irksome. The Beeb, for instance, seems wedded to it, even the usages that have the logical consequence that Norway and Switzerland aren’t part of Europe. Twits.
Thus from a mixture of all kinds began,
That het’rogeneous thing, an Englishman:
In eager rapes, and furious lust begot,
Betwixt a painted Britain and a Scot.
Whose gend’ring off-spring quickly learn’d to bow,
And yoke their heifers to the Roman plough:
From whence a mongrel half-bred race there came,
With neither name, nor nation, speech nor fame.
In whose hot veins new mixtures quickly ran,
Infus’d betwixt a Saxon and a Dane.
While their rank daughters, to their parents just,
Receiv’d all nations with promiscuous lust.
This nauseous brood directly did contain
The well-extracted blood of Englishmen.
I have Dutch and Norwegian knees.
Julia, thanks. You can always write in Spanish, you know.
The True-Born Englishman, by Daniel Defoe.
This comment is too long.
Yeah, we might run out of space.
Come on, Julia, let’s see your Spanish skills.
Somehow, in the UK, popular protest is impossible to get started because somehow the initiative needs to come from outside … It’s disappointing because the UK has a tremendous history of popular protest.
I don’t know, Pin. I think there’s more history of the initiative coming from outside (1848) or not coming at all (1789).
AJ, I was referring to people just expecting ‘other people’ to do it for them. It’s like a bunch of hungry slobs starving to death because they’re all waiting for somebody else to pick up the phone and phone for pizza.
Yes, but I think that’s the way it most often happens in England. It’s history is very conservative, in my opinion. So proud of the 1832 Great Reform Act (which didn’t even change very much), even when Britain’s own former colony, the US, had votes for most of its adult (white) males fifty years earlier. So proud of the puritan revolution that they’d rather have Charles II and never mention it again.
Like England winning the World Cup, like an Israeli-Palestine peace settlement, it’s one of those things that gets talked about every few years, but is never going to happen. (1966! There wasn’t much competition back then)
More than some newly revived nationalism towarsds the French I think it’s about a lack of will or ability to discern between the various political and cultural movements in Europe. And, more generally, about how we see threats and bad news better than we see opportunities and good news. This is not particular to Britain, but perhaps stronger there (and in Scandinavia) because of geography. For Americans this is even harder.
What we see as threats may vary with our political leanings, but whenever they come frome somewhere on the Europen continent, we tend to attribute them to the EU. When there’s social unrest in France, it’s percieved as a rebellion in the whole (continental) EU; when Belgium is suffering from constitutionalized stalemate, it’s percieved as if paralysis is threatening the whole (continental) Europe; when there’s a confidence crisis after decades of dodgy bookkeeping in Greece, it’s percieved as (and almost turned into) a debt crisis in the whole (continental) EU; when Berlusconi manipulates media and law in Italy, it’s percieved as corruption in the whole (continental) EU; when the Catholic Church is involved in politics in Poland, it’s percieved as Papal rule in the whole (continental) EU. For some reason news from Britain aren’t lumped in there. It could be the geography or its independant position towards the rest of the EU, but I don’t think so. I think it’s how English is accessible to all, most importantly journalists, making the nuances visible.
But the European will or ability to discern between the various political and cultural strains within the US is at least as bad, perhaps with the exception of Britain where the common language makes the nuances of American discourse more available.
When you write this,
“When there’s social unrest in France, it’s percieved as a rebellion in the whole (continental) EU;”
Are you talking about British perceptions of this? (Forgive me, because I’m not sure where you’re based) Because I’ve certainly seen very little evidence of this position. In fact, thinking about it, the British coverage usually particularises these incidents, so Greek protests, Spanish protests, French protests, they’re presented case-by-case and certainly not linked together as some Europe-wide issue, which I suppose might make alarm bells ring for those with a stake in containing this unrest.
Do you really think that, for example, with regards to Italy? I’ve not come across the idea that it signals some EU-wide malaise, and when Berlusconi drops one of his many gaffes, it’s Italy that becomes a laughing stock, not the EU. Each figure is usually played off against national stereotypes, the philandering Frenchman, the arrogant German, the tactless Italian, etc.
On the comment boards, there is still some lingering repetition of the US caricaturing of France before the Iraq war (I was in the US when that was happening, and that was probably the most frightening thing I have seen, how just a few news cycles was enough to completely bring about a whole new set of possible relations with France. At that point, it felt very much that the US could’ve launched nuclear weapons at France with popular support.) Nothing in my experience has been anything like as authoritarian as my time in the US, it was like living in a huge army base.
Trond’s in Norway, Pin. He and Siganus Sutor (above, in Mauritius) are the structural engineers who are interested in linguistics (and why not?) and speak perfect English.
Thanks, and you’re right, perfect English. I shall endeavour to match it.
I’m the one who has to worry. I’ve never been good with commas.
That reminds me, AJ, of when the British Council sent the ‘corrected’ version back of my story, and my annoyed message regarding possessive apostrophes (which are still generally misused and look awful) – “I am not Lynne fu*king Truss, remove them now, it’s a work of literature, not a demonstration of English grammar.” Thankfully, they complied and did not insist that their ‘house style’ had to be preserved religiously across an entire anthology.
I can’t do commas either. I don’t thing anyone anywhere can do commas.
I don’t disagree with you, pinhut, the national stereotypes thrive and are important. My point was that when most of what we read or see, from Europe like from everywhere else, is selected and presented in a way that confirms our biases, our image of Europe is the sum of the national stereotypes plus the Brussels stereotype. And when these stereotypes, like the recent one about the French, are played upon or invented to make ourselves feel better (or our political systems or leaders of any flavour look better) , they have a reactionary impact.
Not to say that I don’t like to play with stereotypes myselves.
Oh, and I don’t speak perfect English. I’m a great disappointment in person.
“Oh, and I don’t speak perfect English. I’m a great disappointment in person.”
That’s funny, I have often discovered the same to be true about myself.
“Better to hold on to the idea of me…”
Particularly as in the UK there is very little coverage of the EU parliament.
I consider myself engaged with politics and yet have no clue about it, though I know plenty about the issues in the UK and the US, but the EU, nada. Is the EU, as an institution, given prominent coverage inside any member state? Maybe in Belgium / Luxembourg…
There’s little coverage of the European parliament everywhere, I think. Since its been largely powerless, it’s just not in the center of the political stage. It gained new powers with the Lisbon treaty, but, first, at present there’s a huge conservatve/christian democrat majority, and, second, many of the important decisions are still with the national governments.
And in international negotiations, as we know, a national government’s first priority is to avoid coming through in the media coverage back home as weak and yielding, the second is to make the others pick up the bill, no matter how impoerant the issue. It backfires when an agreement is finally reached: The government has yielded some of the lesser points it pretended to defend, and the agreement is percieved as a defeat. American and Russian governments play this game of no winners in the UN rather than in the EU, of course.
The change away from endless late-night horsetrading beween national governments towards representative parliamentary democracy with the constitutional reform was supposed to be bigger, but we know how that fared.
Um, I’d like to point out that the dislike between Americans and French is mutual. It’s not a one-way street. I’ve been knocked off my feet by some of the outrageous stereotypes and misinformation I’ve heard French people utter about the US.
I’m also tired of the “Americans don’t know anything about the world” meme. While I think that for various reasons most Americans aren’t very interested in what’s going on abroad — and one of the reasons is that abroad is quite far away — and I lament it. And I think that most Europeans know more about other European countries than Americans know about Canada or Mexico. But when I travel around I always hear that the locals know a lot about the US, but then it turns out that they “know” there is no difference between the Republicans and Democrats, that you can’t be admitted to a hospital emergency room without an insurance card, that all Americans are fat, that … etc. Yes, for better or for worse, the US is a powerful country, so people around the world know who the president is and know something about policy, because for better or worse it might affect them. But I don’t see a lot of deep insight out there.
But I do like the photos very much!
Thanks. mab lives in Moscow, for those who don’t know.
I agree with mab. But hey, if it comforts Europeans to cherish their image of fat ignorant Americans, who am I to dispel it? Alain Badiou, however, can go jump in a lake.
Profound.
If you guys think it’s bad being fat ignorant Americans, you should try being English: bad at food, bad at sex — oh, and ugly to boot.
… Of course, I’m half Australian.
I’m not sure how United Statesians see Australians, on the whole. Crocodile Dundee is a big part of it. At the moment those who follow the baseball “postseason” are being bombarded with some tiresome ads for Foster’s Lager.
I’m glad for Australia that they finally decided Mel Gibson was a United Statesian and not an Australian.
I forgot bad teeth, but that probably comes under ugly.
I think that if it weren’t for the bad teeth we would have no problem with your looks.
We’re probably ugly inside.
No, no, we’re the ones who are ugly inside.
AJ,
“try being English: bad at food”
and the good US cuisine would be… perhaps the Monte Cristo, the six-inch high deep-fried sandwich I saw served in MS, or perhaps the Slug Burger, down in AL, that has to be eaten with three minutes of being made before the Crisco fully congeals. There are good restaurants in the US, but the food is generally from somewhere else, just as in the UK. What was great about the restaurants there was that even in some excellent and expensive places, the atmosphere was still very casual, no dress code and non-snooty (Texas de Brasilia at the Peabody Hotel, Memphis, springs to mind). Harder vibe to find in the UK.
Regarding bad food, did you see this desparate effort here in Taiwan?
http://www.bookarmor.com/?p=3013
duh.
business concept
Hilarious hybridised menu :
http://www.irelandspotato.com.my/products.html
The passion fruit was an obligatory accompaniment to potatoes throughout Ireland’s difficult history…
OUR OBJECTIVES
• Malaysia major theme park, resort will be our future target.
Will this be the first Irish potato famine theme park? I don’t think a resort for eating potatoes is going to work, but I also don’t know the market.
The Irish also apparently have poor grammar
“There are two things in the world that can’t be joked.”
Will this be the first Irish potato famine theme park?
Sounds like it.
“Wait in line, for hours, for nothing, then chop up and burn your own furniture to keep warm. Drop dead of hunger and cold during a simulated Galway winter… It’s all here at the Irish Potato Famine theme park…”
There’s no potato-blight sauce.
“All of our food is served in niggardly portions, guaranteed to leave you ravenous.”
I don’t think celebrities or that subgroup of celebrities, politicians, are allowed / advised to use “niggardly” these days.
It may have been a civil servant who got fired for using the word niggardly. But I think they had to hire him/her back when they found out what it meant.
Anyway, what about the other thing that can’t be joked: are they planning an Irish-marriage theme park?
And what if you dare to joked about two potatoes getting hitched? Is that twice as bad, or would it be considered to not belong to either category and therefore to be fine.
And the niggardly civil servant? “It can’t have been during the last 13 years of New Labour profligacy with the public finances, bellowed the major…”
Hmm, Irish women are no joke, that’s for sure. It can’t be coincidence that the typical Irish potato is just large enough to block the windpipe of the typical Irish lass.
OUR VISIONS
• TO HAVE A STAND IN EVERY CORNER OF MALAYSIA
Where does it say this?
And how many corners are there in Malaysia? You see, US companies are far more aggressive, they would not only be looking to do this, they’d also be importing to Malaysia, ‘cutting-edge corner-construction techniques…’
No cutting corners, though.
Here.
Possibly the first law of corner-construction, AJ.
http://cornerconstruction.net/
Look at that sturdy set-square Caribbean combination!
Dependable, so you can relax…
http://www.cornerconstructioncorp.com/
Something of a failure…
OBJECTIVES
To enhance / transform Ireland Potato as a family restaurant targeting the age group of 5 – 60 yrs.
Since when was 5-60 an age group? And why not older potato famine lovers?
http://www.cornerconstructioninc.com/
Worth scrolling down for the Nazi-like posture of the hand with phone.
“Call us today”
“Hi, I’m just calling. I don’t want anything, but the posture is so aggressive, I’m just fearful of the consequences for me and my family… So here I am…”
What about this???
“The meanings of Ireland Potato can be split in to 3 parts : –
a) IRELAND
b) CRAZY
c) POTATO
erm, hold it right there! “Ireland” + “Potato” = Ireland + Crazy + Potato???
***
I also think they can turn the famine around, how about a smiling pumpkin and the strapline, “The famine was great!”
http://www.motokazi.com.hk/
Extraordinary music and leprechaun thing.
“b) Crazy – Crazy in the sense of they are willing to migrate primarily to the United States just to escape starvation. To them potato is just like a main food for the living. They even leave their homeland in searching for potatoes. ”
How crazy! Move somewhere else or starve, what were they thinking…
Did you look at the “special taste”, under “menu” on the leprechaun page?
Yes, I did.
Apparently Japanese seaweed and squid are part of the Irish culinary lexicon.
Last time I was in Dublin, two years ago, we went for curry, and the guy at the takeaway was explaining very very carefully to the customer about the fact that his order contained prawns and that it was quite spicy, clearly retaining the mental image of some abusive/murderous previous client who had flipped out after opening up their package and discovering it was ‘not like NORMAL food…’
Crazy in the sense of they are willing to migrate primarily to the United States just to escape starvation.
Crazy in the sense that they hadn’t heard of French fries. So much closer.
And picide is not even in the dictionary, unless they mean microchips? Is possible, if there is a Far Eastern techno-vibe-thing going on.
http://www.telegraphics.com.au/sw/info/picide.html
Click on ‘more’ under the About Us and scroll down!
lorem ipsum alert!
Starvation, schmarvation.
That’s like the Turks who sell currywurst in Germany. They flinch when you ask if it’s hot, and say “No, no! Not if you don’t want it hot.”
and the good US cuisine would be… perhaps the Monte Cristo, the six-inch high deep-fried sandwich I saw served in MS, or perhaps the Slug Burger, down in AL, that has to be eaten with three minutes of being made before the Crisco fully congeals. There are good restaurants in the US, but the food is generally from somewhere else
Right. You pick the worst possible food and then state that even if there is good food, it’s all from somewhere else.
How about the whole movement for healthy (ie non-French) cuisine that developed in California in the 1980s? How about fusion cuisine, another American invention? How about great regional food, like clam chowder or apple pie or collard greens? If your complaint is “it all came from somewhere else,” then I hope you also sneer at Italian pasta.
Or the Mexicans chasing me along the street yelling ‘Picante! Picante!’ as if I had just pulled the pin out of a hand grenade.
I thought maybe p’icide was pesticide against the potato blight.
“healthy (ie non-French”
???
“then I hope you also sneer at Italian pasta.”
Sure, bring me a plate, I’ll even throw in a free glare.
You’re too doing that tribal defensive thing to perfection.
superfluous ‘too’ in last sentence.
“There are good restaurants in the US, but the food is generally from somewhere else, just as in the UK. What was great about the restaurants there was that even in some excellent and expensive places, the atmosphere was still very casual, no dress code and non-snooty (Texas de Brasilia at the Peabody Hotel, Memphis, springs to mind).”
You know, it’s not a tool of honest debate to leave out the balancing statements in what I wrote, then start banging away like the stereotypical Ugly American.
You really like the US, you feel compelled to defend it. I get it. You made your point, etc, big deal.
You two & Language probably don’t disagree as much as you think you do, and it’s a wasted effort to insult each other.
(Now I have to work.)
Agreed, it’s no use getting all upset.
and the good US cuisine would be… perhaps the Monte Cristo, the six-inch high deep-fried sandwich I saw served in MS, or perhaps the Slug Burger, down in AL, that has to be eaten with three minutes of being made before the Crisco fully congeals. There are good restaurants in the US, but the food is generally from somewhere else, just as in the UK.
Your smug ignorance disbars you from being able to make sneering comments about “that tribal defensive thing” and be taken seriously. If this were my blog, I’d tell you to knock it off, but since it’s not, I’ll just say I dislike you and your attitude and leave it at that.
I’m neither smug nor ignorant, but sure, describe the phenomenon. I am not tribal in the least, but again, have it your way. I suppose my years in the US permit me no comment on what I experienced there. That’s fine, too.
Now you’ve spoken, I dislike you, too.
And you’d throw me off. That’s the Ugly American again, in his pomp, “If you don’t like it, leave.”
I really wonder why you bothered writing your comment. National pride?
You can’t seriously be so upset over knockabout comments on US cuisine, are you guys both keen chefs?
Can’t we relax around here, please?
The Monte Cristo sandwich is said to be a descendant of the French croque-monsieur.
On a visit to Athens GA last year I tasted some delicious “fusion” of southeastern US and Japanese culinary traditions in one retsaurant.
On the other hand, in another place right down the street I succumbed to temptation and tried an Elvis sandwich: peanut butter and banana between two thick slices of French toast, with maple (or was it imitation-maple?) syrup for dipping. They offered to put bacon in there, too, but for some reason I passed up that option.
Elvis liked bacon.
Please stop bickering over nothing. You’re all far too smart to fall for this kind of thing. Leave it to me and Nij.
Language, Pinhut wrote a really good short story that I’ll send you. You just met him on the wrong foot.
(AJP: what a gentleman & great host you are!)
Gosh, thanks. I love your pictures of Poitiers, by the way, but I couldn’t figure out why you can’t go. And now I see you have a new post on organised crime …
Actually, I am a rather keen chef. But mostly I’ve been subjected for decades to general American-bashing and a good decade of serious American-bashing, and I no longer think it’s cute.
I was not sent the directive concerning being cute, nor a list of pre-existing conditions of blog commenters on A Bad Guide.
If only I had known, things could have been so different, for it was not my intention to aggravate, not that this can likely be verified to anybody’s satisfaction, particularly with trust at such a premium.
Sorry if I embarrassed you, but that’s exactly what I think.
I can not go to Poitiers because of money (my university does not give me enough money for that trip). And because of time (every minute count next year: it’s my last chance with my thesis.)
it was not my intention to aggravate
That’s hard to believe, given the predictable results of issuing such insults, but I’ll take you at your word and consider the incident closed. But it’s not so much a matter of “pre-existing conditions of blog commenters on A Bad Guide” as of basic civility.
I wrote a bunch of positive things about the US. mab ignored those and focused on the bad. Her choice, she then cites a pre-existing condition.
What are you talking about, ‘the incident is closed.’ ? Your officious tone and suggestion that I lack ‘basic civility’ is itself an example of a lack of basic civility. A paradox, well done.
Oh, now if you’ll excuse me, the committee is in session and Pinhut’s Council on Blog Civility has determined that, yes, it’s unamious, twelve hands raised, that yes, this incident is now closed.
*unanimous
¡¡puaj!!
(sorry, that’s was an involuntary reaction)
The funny thing is that all of you are usually so excruciatingly polite.
Yeah, I guess the bit about the US as a big army base kind of blinded me to all the positive stuff.
Here’s an example of why I now longer smile patiently when American-bashing is going on. It’s called a “banned American public service announcement” and presented as made in the US (although you can hear the thick (probably Russian) accent and bad grammar of the “American” host). http://felbert.livejournal.com/716617.html
That’s interesting, mab. Although I don’t really understand what they’re saying, I can see the sex & violence images. What’s their point?
Although I love some of the food in the US, I’m pretty mad about its foreign policy. Not to put words in his mouth, but I suspect Pinhut feels the same way.
The “host” “explains” that “we Americans” have… well, let’s see. Impoverished the world. Stolen everything. Oppressed everyone (while at home we “dance”). We decided to take over the Middle East, so we arranged for 9/11. There are no “terrorists.” We created terrorists and sent them around the world to do our dirty work. We decided we needed a short victorious war to raise McCain’s ratings, so we told Georgia to invade South Ossetia and commit genocide, and then sent US soldiers to fight there. We decided to organize “overturns” in the former Soviet Union. Etc etc etc.
Mr Crown, as you wrote, I criticize the US and us Americans, and I don’t have a problem when other people do. But I do have a problem with taking complex issues — and the policy differences between the US and France are big, complex issues — and reducing it to “it’s all America’s fault.” I’m sick of people saying “the US media did X or Y,” when in actual fact the US media is quite varied. And I’m sick of the cliche about bad American food and how everything is from somewhere else. And I’m really sick of people of people tossing off insults about Americans as if it were just fine — as if it weren’t rude to insult people. I wouldn’t say to someone: “You people are really stupid, you know? And your food is lousy, and your political system stinks, and you’re all fat.” But people say things like that to me all the time. Why on earth is that okay?
In the end, it’s inciting hatred. Because people over here pick up all this and they make fake American public service announcements, and they air 2 hour specials on 9/11 where all the experts agree that it was arranged by Bush and the planes were manned by robots, and they would happily beat the crap out of me.
I’m not expressing myself very well, and I’m sure I sound overwrought. But the world is a complicated place and I’m tired of all those complications getting reduced to “Americans are fat, ignorant jerks.”
Off soapbox now.
Because of living in Russia, your situation regarding people’s attitudes to Americans is more complicated. I’ve never been to Russia, and I couldn’t say anything helpful; that weird video is not typical of Norway or England, the countries I spend most time in.
But in other places I think “Americans are fat, ignorant jerks” is something Americans have to put up with at the moment. If someone says it to me (I have US citizenship as well as Brit) — and I’m not actually that fat or ignorant — then I’m collateral damage, just like when US or British troops kill an Afghani by accident. The president (Bush, I don’t know about Obama) calls the US “the greatest country in the world” or “the greatest democracy”, the US president is referred to in the media as “the most powerful man on Earth”, even the David Letterman Show comes to you from New York, “the greatest city in the world” (believe me, they’re only half joking). Such statements are so provocative. A couple of days ago, the (London) Guardian had a video of Christine O’Donnell, Republican senate candidate, showing that she didn’t realize that separation of church and state is in the US constitution. After the article the second comment by a reader is this:
986 readers recommend this comment — and I don’t think it’s rude. If Ms O’Donnell wants to be the most powerful whatever, and if the US’s news gets broadcast around the world, it’s just inevitable.
As for fat: well, a lot of people are fat now, not just Americans.
Perfectly said, AJP, I can’t agree more!
Today I’m being obnoxiously flattering, I know, but I swear it’s not premeditated.
It’s not obnoxious. More, more!
Ohhhh! And he has sense of humour !!
Jajajaja ;-)
“and I don’t have a problem when other people do”
This is, rather patently, untrue.
The languagehat person was guilty of saying ‘the incident is closed’ and then reopening it by accusing me of a basic lack of civility. That is not specifically American behavio(u)r, but it is rather juvenile and there was no reason to let it stand.
I lived in the US and follow its culture and politics daily. I read Scott Horton, Glenn Greenwald, Digby, MediaMatters and used to follow HuffPo and TPM. I take in the Atlantic Monthly, Foreign Policy, The New Yorker, The Nation, Harpers and sometimes look at City Journal, etc, as well as yapping and discussing things with my US-based friends. This forms one side of a square, the other three sides of which are the UK media, the news from Guatemala and how Central America is covered in El Pais, along with the Taiwan cross-strait shenanigans that I take in from here, Taipei City.
Although I have repeated myself on this, I said good and bad things about the US food, but mab could only focus on the latter. That myopia meant continuing misrepresentation, (by omission), which I won’t let stand. Deal with the whole, not just the parts that satisfy your wish to play the wounded victim. As for the languagehat person, I’ve no idea why he considers himself, who had not been directly addressed, to have some part to play, or to be some arbiter of politeness while insulting me and outlining his dislike for me, etc. It just seems rather unnecessary.
As for the stereotypes, get over them! If I had a dollar for everytime I say I am from the UK and people laugh and say “It rains all the time” I’d be a rich man, likewise for Americans going on and on about “English teeth” while I was there. There’s always going to be some fallout from exporting such world beaters as Ronald Macdonald and Lady GaGa, along with permanent war, extraordinary rendition and drone strikes, while back in the Homeland, creationist throwbacks wave pitchforks and the Sarah Palin’s and O’Donnell’s of the world infest the stage of public life with their stupidity. Sure, that’s not *all* the US is, and I take your word that compensations such as fusion cuisine or even some excellent micro-brewed beer may place a different spin on things, but not so much mab, but the languagehat dude has just acted like the typical Ugly American lout, slipping in the insults while attempting to claim the moral high ground, so the vexed situaiton arises of listening to the yelps of displeasure over ‘stereotyping’ while simultaneously being treated to a magnificent display of behavio(u)r that conforms to it in every particular.
Now, if you’ll excuse me, gentlemen, this has detained me long enough and I have important work to do. I will leave you to your 13 languages, and only hope that in the other 12, perhaps there is a tad more grace.
No mas.
I do like Pinhut.
Not specially about anything in particular, Gary Trudeau:
Mr. Crown, you’re right that Americans are going to have to pay for years of bad policies around the world. And you may be right that Americans say they are the best more than a lot of other nations. But maybe you’re not. Does Obama say that more than any other leader, or do foreign news services pick that up more because it fits their stereotype? Do people know more about the wingnuts and tea parties because they are important, or do news services report about them more because they are so “colorful” and fit their stereotype of the ignorant American? Are people around the world buying American products because of unfair marketing and clout or because Americans have a weird knack for creating popular culture and cultural artifacts?
In any case, I don’t deny that the US has done a lot wrong and is continuing to do a lot wrong. But what I object to strongly is the hyperbole of pinhut’s quotes and post. At that point, it felt very much that the US could’ve launched nuclear weapons at France with popular support. Nothing in my experience has been anything like as authoritarian as my time in the US, it was like living in a huge army base. I mean, really. If he thinks that’s “authoritarian,” what word is he going to use to describe a truly authoritarian country? Or a country without any press freedoms? Or without any human or civil rights?
Okay, I’m done.
Does Obama say that more than any other leader, or do foreign news services pick that up more because it fits their stereotype?
I’m not sure other leaders say it at all. I’m not sure they don’t, either, but it’s certainly not common in Britain or Norway or Germany (since the war) to talk seriously about your own country as “the greatest”.
Do people know more about the wingnuts and tea parties because they are important, or do news services report about them more because they are so “colorful” and fit their stereotype of the ignorant American?
There would be a lot less interest if they were wingnuts, but these particular “stupid Americans” could be the next “leaders of the free world”, so it’s a legitimate news story.
And of course the USA really is great in many ways.
Speaking of stereotypes.
(We couldn’t have such a civil discussion fizzle out on 107, could we?)
I’m not sure other leaders say it at all. I’m not sure they don’t, either, but it’s certainly not common in Britain or Norway or Germany (since the war) to talk seriously about your own country as “the greatest”.
It’s at least not uncommon for Norwegian politicians (of whatever party or parties that happen to be in government at the time) to take credit when another UN or OECD life quality ranking has been released. And there are times when the words used to describe Norway’s role in the world invoke the ancient idea of God’s Chosen People. It’s better now than (what both sides used to argue) in the years before the 1994 Lillehammer Olympics and EU referendum, though.
Satiric comic artist turned historian Tor Bomann Larsen‘s brilliant Den evige sne from 1993 is written near the peak of this Messianic awakening.
It’s at least not uncommon for Norwegian politicians (of whatever party or parties that happen to be in government at the time) to take credit when another UN or OECD life quality ranking has been released.
This is similar to the US “greatest” boast, because they’re both intended for internal consumption by the voters (though, in the US case, it leaks out round the world).
From your link: The EU, lacking a unifying cultural paradigm similar to the US’s ‘melting pot’, has ended up celebrating a rather bland version of multiculturalism. One example: the buildings on the euro notes are imaginary, in part to avoid fueling national chauvinisms, either of the slighted or boasting variety.
The Euro notes look like supermarket coupons. The countries all have their own cultures, they don’t need an invented, unifying Euro-theme. That road leads to the Eurovision Song Contest. When there’s a potential dispute, they can resort to something ancient but real: Tuscan or Greek, for instance. Although, personally, I’d like gold Eiffel towers sideways on all the money.
Some Euro coins show buildings, those are not imaginary.
In one of my professional capacities, I did a lot of work with public perception. What you find is that people notice what they are looking for or expecting to hear. They think they hear it all the time. But then you do an actual study and content analysis and it turns out that they are wrong. So I’m not sure that American leaders say “best” or “greatest” more than every other leader. It’s certainly possible in the post-war years, and it’s certainly an election convention.
But I don’t see why David Letterman’s claim that NYC is the greatest city in the world should stand out. Wherever I go the locals believe that their city is the most beautiful, their literature the most extraordinary, their cuisine the most subtle, their history the most complex — and their apples are the best. Everyone’s apples are the best. I think that’s delightful and I always agree with them because of course Paris and Venice and Istambul and Cairo are absolutely the most magnificent cities in the world. Except for all the other cities I’ve been to, like Prague and Budapest, which are truly the most beautiful, or Tallinn which is the absolutely most magnificent city in the world. And then there are all the other cities I haven’t been to, which I’m sure are even more absolutely the most beautiful cities in the universe.
The thing I like about this site — well, other than the absolute best goats in the world and best photography and most interesting posts — is that the posters are from all over and live all over and that everyone is nice. I don’t remember a single time when someone wrote something nasty about another country or people. People poke fun at themselves and there is a bit of good-natured ribbing, but no one else has written any scathing attack on an ethnic group or religion or country. I don’t think it’s okay to do that.
The coins are probably better than the notes. The big new thing with coins is using two metals together, they do it in Britain too. I’m surprised it isn’t too expensive to manufacture such items.
I’m not sure that American leaders say “best” or “greatest” more than every other leader.
Well, as Trond pointed out, other countries do it too just in different ways. “Leader of the free world” certainly doesn’t apply to the leader of the EU, but I’m sure that phrase is only used as a joke nowadays. You’re right about Letterman. “GCITW” irritates me, even though I lived there for 17 years; but I don’t watch Letterman, so it’s not a huge problem.
I agree with your last point, which is one reason why I wrote (above) that the argument was beneath you three. Also, though I have made hostile remarks about people occasionally at Language Hat, I’d much prefer that it didn’t happen here. If I want a base, pointless argument I can call… no, better not say that.
The coins are much better than the notes. The national flip side idea is great, and I wish they’d done the same with the notes. When I’m in a Euro country with my children, we can find a quiet spot, sort coins and learn geography, history and economics.
But I wish they’d been able to agree on a less boring name, one that was to be translated between the different languages. I’d have preferred one of the historically equivalent (for some value of “equivalent”)) coin sets, Gulden/Florin, Taler/Escudo, Lira/Pound, Aes/Drakhma/Penny, Solidus/Nomisma/Shilling or whatever, but they could also have coined a translatable term.
>A. J. P. Crown
In Thailand there are some similar coins too:
http://en.ucoin.net/users/coin/thailand_10_thai_baht_2003/?ucid=14100
Their values lower than euro have made possible here a fraudulent use in, for example, vending machines.
With regard to invented monuments I don’t agree with you at all; this idea has been unfortunately necessary because the patriotic zeal is still too strong. Although that is not the same, the different symbols of Red Cross are a case similar because the religions; there are even a red diamond or crystal for atheistic et al. What a pity! In my opinion, sometimes we get offended by the slightest things.
Jesús: With regard to invented monuments I don’t agree with you at all
What don’t you agree with?
this idea has been unfortunately necessary because the patriotic zeal is still too strong.
I agree that patriotic zeal is a bad thing, it’s a bigger barrier to peace than religion is, in my opinion. Pinhut recommended a good book on the subject.
Trond: I wish they’d been able to agree on a less boring name… but they could also have coined a translatable term.
I like “moolah”.
>A. J. P. Crown
These invented monuments show our culture without the need of concrete buildings, that is, without a Spanish, French, etc. monument and the arguments added.
Patriotic zeal is a bad thing, of course; for that I wrote “unfortunately”.
Invented buildings carry no meaning except typological: maybe “modernism”, “fascism” etc and the association with banks or parliaments or housing or railway stations. The only other meaning an invented building is going to show is “We cannot agree”.
>A. J. P. Crown
I’m sorry. I don’t know if it’s a problem with my “stuttering” English.
I only see Classical, Romanesque, Gothic, etc. architecture, though fictitious.
Never mind. The point is why have fictitious buildings when the real ones are better? Every euro country could put a building on a banknote, the French could put a sideview of Chartres, the Greeks the front of the Parthenon, Spain the Alhambra etc. If there are more countries than banknotes they could have two of each denomination of banknote- or three!
Honestly, they’re like a bunch of five-year-olds.
>A. J. P. Crown
Yes, that was a good possibility but also it was the same until then. I think the idea was to make new common symbols forgetting the individuality.
As regard the name, euro is better than ecu, the old and cold chosen. It’s true the pronunciation is not similar but there are few words like “taxi” in the world (LOL). If the politicians chose a name employed only in a country, the rest of people…hit the ceiling.
Anyway I think the designer was brilliant with this order.
You can’t expect common symbols that look old but aren’t to have any significance. “Old” means there is some history. These don’t have any history, they just look as if they ought to. They are fake, they are lying, they are creepy.
>A. J. P. Crown
On the other hand, do you remember when, a few days ago, Sarkozy lashed out in anger at the commissioner Viviane Reding ? He forgot she is a European commissioner, not only a important woman of Luxembourg. That gives an idea about the acceptance of the concept of Europe. It is not an easy task.
Very true.